So at the risk of sounding like an ass, I feel that it’s time for me to take this to the forums.
A while ago, a year-old patch involving evade mechanics was reverted by a developer which breaks a fundamental mechanic for DoT classes. I submitted a PR to restore the original functionality however the developer that reversed it feels he “didn’t like it” the way it was.
I have tried to reason and provide examples as to why this needs to be reverted and I’m not the only one who has responded. Given that I am powerless to effect change, I would like input from other people in the community, specifically developers. You can follow the conversation here and here.
The latest reply is simply absurd
situations like this will keep happening more and more often in the future and there is nothing you or I can do about it. In my eyes we are now at the point where changes for details should no longer be made
“situations like this” are created by developers who refuse to wait for community input and to revert something based on impressions from retail and then to tell people that changes for details should no longer be made is utterly ridiculous.
IF this was simply cosmetic then a “change for details” wouldn’t be so important. This however breaks a fundamental mechanic for DoT classes when it comes to kiting.
This is not a personal attack against the developer involved, no matter what you might want to read into it. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the year-old patch is mine.
It has to do with the whole process at Trinity. If developers are allowed to break things by reverting code willy-nilly and contributors have no recourse to get it fixed, what’s the point of being a contributor ?
IMO commits that revert patches that are not causing critical errors should be put up for community review before being commited, regardless who they come from.
I have long said that we need real project leaders (and, no, I don’t mean how vlad used to be in Mangos) to direct the project properly, and to make sure big changes go through the proper review process before being sent to the publicly available repo (which also brings up my long held belief that there should be a dev repo (still open to the public) and, a release repo, where the majority of users are encouraged to get their sources from.) This way, people who don’t want to be Beta or Alpha testers can just download and compile the newest public release, without worries that some major flaw will exist, and those who know what they are doing, and want to be on the bleeding edge can use the dev repo instead.
I’m wondering if this is being ignored simply because it’s me making the fuss? If so, that’s a pretty poor sense of community when you can treat someone like a pariah simply because they make noise about something that’s broken.
To be honest though, you don’t help matters making the assumption that someone (or a group of people) has a grudge against you. If you really felt like there was a vendetta against you, then why do you bother continuing to spend so much of your time here?
Instead of assuming it’s personal, take it up with that person (or persons) privately and find out for certain. Throwing out a haphazard accusation or assumption here in the view of the public isn’t going to do you any good, and it’s only going to cause drama.
Not meaning to sound offensive or to attack you or anything, just throwing in my .02.
Well, I guess you’re too new to realize that when a PR and forum thread go unanswered it’s usually because you’ve pissed someone off. If you read the PR comments you’ll see that I tried reasoning and example which is why I came to the forums.
I guess I was under the impression that my time and contributions here would at least warrant a discussion but you’re right, it really isn’t worth my time. I was just trying to help the community which I won’t be doing anymore.
Quite frankly I do find your post offensive. If a person can’t get anywhere after a month of posts on a PR and they can’t come to the forums without being accused of causing drama, exactly what kind of community is this?
Perhaps if the developers actually entered into the conversation (either for or against) it wouldn’t even have got here. But hey, I’m not an idiot. I gave it a shot but I know when to quit.
Also, if you think this is drama, you haven’t seen anything. The developers aren’t strangers to creating drama of their own. Of all the people on the forums, my drama to post ratio is the least.
Drama queen. Like I said. I’m pointing out that you’re complaining. Literally all of your “PR to Forum” posts are littered with things like “Since im being ignored, im just gonna stop doing PRs and post them here”. Have you ever actually looked at the bug tracker? You’re not the only one! Stop taking it so personally.
Leave those little emotional sentiments out of it, and it won’t look like drama. However, I’m only saying this in the interests of your public image. If you want to be known as a drama queen, please continue on and do great and wonderful things.
I’m not new to forum communities. I’m not new to drama. (I’m also not new to TC) TC is no different than any other group of likeminded individuals. This be drama.
Terminology used in the discussions can cause misunderstandings all the time. In fact, I recently felt very attacked by the “powers that be” over a perl script that I had posted. Initially, it wasn’t so much of an attack, but the relentless negativity against my contribution was rather upsetting. It really set me off when I discovered that a nearly identical project had been done for Windows (I manage my database from a Mac, making that project useless) and these same “powers that be” had never posted a single comment in that thread. It seemed to me that I was literally being singled out. Was that the intent? The claim is that it wasn’t, and since the negativity stopped, I accepted that as the truth. I’m quite sure that the devs feel attacked for no reason, too.
Essentially, everyone just needs to lighten up (me included) and ask for clarification before getting upset about forum posts.
So in a post lecturing me about drama, you resort to insults thereby inciting drama. Nice.
Anyway, how exactly is my post “drama”? If you stop and think for a minute, putting aside that it involves me or my PR, the whole process shows how lopsided the Trinity development has become.
Let’s look at it from a generic standpoint:
[ul][li]A developer broke a game mechanic with no input from the community, simply because he felt it was wrong[/li]Note: The developer had ample opportunity a year ago to speak up when the mechanic was fixed the first time. The developer participated in that thread.
[li]A long-standing contributor posted a fix[/li][li]The developer said he didn’t agree with the fix and wasn’t going to push it[/li][li]The long-standing contributor, along with other members posted evidence supporting the fix[/li][li]No other Trinitycore developers participated[/li][li]After 23 days, the long-standing contributor took it to the forums[/li][li]One member replied addressing the issue[/li][ul]Note: I believe this member was once accused of being a drama queen too (the trend seems to be to insult people who speak their mind)
[li]Other members replied with insults and lectures but not addressing the actual issue[/li][li]Developers replied on the forums but not to address the actual issue[/li]I know you’re new here but the developers used to engage in discussion. So, after spending almost a month trying to get a discussion started without success, one can infer:
[ul][li]It’s personal (the person making the noise is being ignored)[/li][li]The developers don’t have the balls to reverse another developer’s commit (which isn’t good for Trinity)[/li][li]The developers don’t care (which isn’t good for Trinity)[/li][li]The developers are busy (but too busy to at least post “we’re busy”)?[/li][/ul]
I won’t apologise for posting my opinion but you should know that I’ve invested many years in Trinity between Help & Support, guides and patches. So yes, I do expect more and yes, I do take it personal.
Finally, I’m not too concerned about my “public image” as you put it (we’re all anonymous here anyway). So far you’re the only one that has posted negatively about my OP. I hoped I was doing a service by getting people to open their eyes but instead you’ve succeeded in kicking up a cloud of dust with your lecture, rather than contributing to the actual issue of developers changing things “simply because”.
After reading your condescending post I realized that Trinity is not a place that I want to be anymore. The developers don’t seem to be very interested in dialog and when community members do try to get conversation going they’re set upon by people like you who, rather than actually participate in discussing the issues, resort to lecturing and adhominem attacks.
But I’m sure all of the above is simply “drama” to you. There can’t possibly be any legitimate points made.
+MrSmite you’ve said a thousand times that TrinityCore is not the place for you and that you’re leaving, yet you come back after a few weeks (ready to complain, of course). How is that NOT a drama queen?
I enjoy the Trinity project, so I really would like to see more positive attitudes coming from the people representing it. I do understand wanting to keep a certain set of standards, but approach the contributor(s) in a friendly way about problems that are seen. Driving away contributors is something that can really hurt a project. Ever wonder why there are so many other core projects? Think about it.
We kind of got off track on this thread. Discussing attitudes on both sides of a situation is a different issue, I think.
As for the patch that was reverted or broken, I suggest, to MrSmite, either finding a way to adjust the code to work with the changes or create your own branch/project based on the version of the core when the patch worked and import other fixes/additions that you can. I also had a patch that worked, just 2 months ago. A core update broke my patch, too. Thing is, my patch was technically more of a hack that happened to appear correct on the client side. I had some other things going on, so I intend to track down the correct place to apply my fix on the current code. To be honest, I’m not entirely sure that my previous fix was really wrong, but I’d rather adapt my patch than have to adapt every other update to my own project.
Regardless of the reason(s) given, the fact remains that the official code can and will evolve in ways that will break some code. Contributors either need to adapt with the changes or start their own project.
[COLOR=rgb(64,64,64)]I have learned that in the open-source world, you are not your code. A critique of your project is not tantamount to a personal attack. An alternative take on the problem your software solves is not hostile or divisive. It is simply the result of a regenerative process, driven by an unending desire to improve the status quo.
Well, that both does and doesn’t apply. When people attack (critique) a project, it applies. When people attack a specific version of a project while ignoring other versions, that IS personal. Why attack (critique) the one and not the rest? If all projects are doing near identical things, then singling out one to pick on isn’t attacking the code. My code was not an issue in what I posted and felt attacked. The concept of my code was the target, but java and Windows projects that do nearly identical tasks were not getting the same negativity posted.
In MrSmite’s case, was it his code that was the problem, or was it something else? He wasn’t told “change your coding method and resubmit.” Instead, his contribution was simply killed by someone for some unknown reason. If the reason was known, this thread would likely not exist. Keep in mind, it has been explained that reasoning, providing examples, and support from other users did not result in a proper explanation for things ending up as they did. I can easily see why that would seem personal to someone that spent time to contribute.
Providing critique to contributor is fine. There is a very fine line between critique and insult. How would any of the developers take it if I said the entire project is a hack job? Technically speaking, none of it is based on the actual code created at Blizzard, and there’s a ton of rather basic stuff still not complete after many years of work. Do any of the development team want to deny these facts? NOTE: I am NOT attacking the developers or the code. I’m simply pointing out that a critique of the Trinity project can be just as harsh as I have experienced (and MrSmite seems to have experienced more of it than I have). Other than getting the genuine code, we have no choice but to “hack” code to perform the tasks needed. For all we know, after 4 expansions, the genuine code is just a bunch of hacks, too.
Lets get the facts straight, Discover is known to be an asshole, Paradox is known to be an asshole, Shauren is known to be an asshole, Malcrom is a self-proclaimed fag (This last part doesn’t really have anything to do with the conversation, but he bribed me into mentioning it in every post i make).
I, for one, do not stop to check every single notification that lands on my github notifications page, as there are hundreds of them everyday.
I still don’t see what is the problem of waiting, it will someday get the attention it needs, wether it be by Shauren or by any other developer.
We are not afraid of reversing each other’s commits, we’ve done it plenty of times, and yes, we do care about stuff.
Had a developer posted this a month ago this entire thread wouldn’t exist.
Anyway, let me first start off by apologizing for coming off like a lunatic. But let me try to explain why I did:
I’ve been here since the beginning. In the past every PR I made quickly fostered discussion, usually from multiple devs. We’d hammer out coding issues or mistakes or whatever and eventually it would be pushed. Naturally I grew accustomed to that type of interaction.
So when a developer broke something that I had already fixed once, I fixed it again. This time though I spent a month making my case yet the only developer who participated was the one who broke it in the first place. That developer made it clear they had no intention of reversing it.
I brought it to the forums and after four days still no developer even acknowledged the issue. Then I get lectured about drama which clearly was unnecessary and pissed me off. People who have been around since the beginning know I can make noise when I feel strongly about something. But given the type of interaction I was used to, I’d hardly call it drama when I question why things are different.
So yes, I got mad. But it was less about being “ignored” and more about a project that seemingly has developers who can’t admit they made a mistake. The whole “am I being ingored” comment was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment but in hindsight it probably was what derailed the whole issue.
The problem with waiting is simple: It breaks a fundamental game mechanic. It’s 2 months old and still not resolved. The PR may be closed but the bug and fix both still exist.